Media ID   0218-AB    

Parliamentary debate (23 October 1985) on the second reading of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill

Unique ID



Bill Dillon, Frank O'Flynn, Maurice McTigue, Peter Tapsell

Related media

0217-AB, 0219-AB


Source tape





23 October 1985







Recorded by


Barry Neels

Deposited by


Barry Neels


Parliamentary debate on the second reading spans 0213 – 0223, and 0206


This summary gives general themes as to the content of this recording. It is not a verbatim transcript. Always refer back to the original audio. This is a working document and any amendments/corrections are welcome.



Peter Tapsell [continued from 0217-AB] - as the result of changes overseas has there been any improvement in those countries.. lesbians.. pitiful reliance on expert witnesses.. Health Department evidence..



Tapsell – sodomy.. should it be condoned by the law.. unlike animals we have the ability of conscience determination.. sexual drive



Speaker – warning to the public gallery



Tapsell – human activity is governed by passions.. the law has a part in civic morality.. three concerns about the Bill – whether it passes or fails .. what are peoples expectations of what will happen if this Bill passes.. it’ll be a nine day wonder.. public sentiment will not change.. AIDS.. In New Zealand it is a homosexual disease.. cigarettes example..



Tapsell – societal standards.. not like a pendulum.. then the swift swing back.. German middle-class example.. Hitler was voted into power.. it is my belief that a change is coming .. shift away from the standards of the day..



Tapsell – I’ve been around my electorate.. they do not wish homosexuals to be persecuted .. they would not wish sodomy to be legalised



Maurice McTigue – it is about sodomy .. it is not a persecution of homosexuals. .it is a time to be counted.. don’t we make an appeal to God each day in this chamber..



McTigue – homosexuality is not a condition we are born with.. it is the result of conditioning.. deviant activity.. procreation.. the cult of Humanism – if it is pleasurable, why not..



McTigue – homosexuality is the total rejection of the normal love patterns that there is between man and wife.. the family is the cornerstone of our society.. more violence.. degeneration of the home and family life.. if you accept the cult of Humanism – sadism, prostitution, incest, bestiality, euthanasia.. there is a time to say stop.. the petition..



McTigue – my values are not negotiable.. 15,059 people in my electorate have signed the petition.. key concerns of voters in Timaru.. moral issues and then the state of the economy..



McTigue – Human Rights Act .. teachers would be obliged to teach homosexuality and lesbianism.. employment discrimination..



McTigue - many Members have been gravely misguided.. degeneration.. The homosexual within our community is a predatory being.. multitude of partners



Frank O'Flynn – I congratulate Fran Wilde.. the debate has been good..



O’Flynn – usually I try to keep my moral views to myself.. unlike other Members.. I regard homosexual conduct as wrong and sinful.. it is impossible to argue that such acts are natural.. The question raised by the Bill is whether it should be criminal..



O’Flynn – Members should exercise their vote as to what is best for society.. When this issue was raised ten years ago.. it shouldn’t be criminal.. there are three grounds why.. for many years criminal proceedings have hardly been taken.. pressures have been put on homosexuals .. blackmail.. gross intolerance on both sides..



O’Flynn – In 1975 I returned to law .. example of police mistreating homosexuals.. it is for that reason I support Part One of this Bill..



O’Flynn – age of consent .. Part Two .. anti-discrimination.. they say that they have human rights.. I can’t agree with claims like that.. these acts are abnormal.. We shouldn’t have to be bound to accept homosexuals..



O’Flynn – foreshadowing an amendment to allow discrimination in the Armed Forces .. In short, I support Part One.. difficulties with the age of consent.. opposed to Part Two



Bill Dillon – legality and morality.. it depends on how you phrase the question.. sodomy used to be dealt with in the ecclesiastical courts.. I appear to be the third Catholic in a row to speak tonight..



Dillon – have sympathy for the plight of the homosexual.. I’ve been on the Committee hearing submissions on this Bill..1,200 submissions.. medical and scientific research does not appear to have advanced since the Kinsey Report.. sexual continuum of 1 – 6 .. homosexual/heterosexual .. 5 –10% are at the homosexual end, established before the age of five.. they cannot avoid their sexual orientation..



Dillon – Hamilton East electorate - 20,299 signatures (97.25%) on the petition – almost unbelievable.. on checking only 37% signed the petition.. even at only 40% genuine signatures that is 8,000 in my electorate that oppose this Bill..



Speaker – Members may not quote directly from newspapers



Dillon – I’ve been moved by the number of letters.. I put to one side the extremists from both sides of this debate.. what is called for here is tolerance and understanding..



Dillon – I’m supported in this by the New Zealand Inter-Church Council.. middle ground .. three issues: decriminalisation .. we need to be compassionate.. age of consent .. being a father I am conscious and aware of different maturing rates.. I am not yet convinced that I should not support an age of eighteen.. [continues on 0219-AB]