Media ID   0231-B    

Parliamentary Committee Stages (20 November 1985) of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill

Unique ID



Geoff Braybrooke, Helen Clarke, John Banks, Norm Jones, Peter Tapsell, Philip Woollaston, Richard Prebble, Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan

Related media

0231-A, 0232-AB


Source tape





20 November 1985







Recorded by


Barry Neels

Deposited by


Barry Neels


Committee Stages span 0231 – 0238


This summary gives general themes as to the content of this recording. It is not a verbatim transcript. Always refer back to the original audio. This is a working document and any amendments/corrections are welcome.



Richard Prebble [continued from 0231-A] – discrimination.. Human Rights Commission.. we still don’t have equality for women or race.. I don’t think we can extend it to sexual preference.. we will be persecuting respectable members of the community.. martyrdom.. I support Part One and am going to oppose Part Two



John Banks – Part Two is obnoxious.. sodomy on sixteen year old kids.. next we will be accepting incest.. perversions.. I have never turned anyone down on employment opportunities because of their sexual orientation.. totally opposed to legalising sodomy for boys of sixteen.. we are not opposing meaningful relationships.. but we are opposing legalising sodomy for sixteen year old boys.. we represent 800,000 New Zealanders..



Banks – we propose to fight this evil Bill.. even if we held a referendum I still couldn’t support it.. you can’t cut your conscience to fit the day.. will then there be amendments to lower the age to fifteen.



Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan – supporters cannot produce any biblical texts supporting homosexuality as a legitimate sexual expression.. I’ve spoken with leaders of significant Maori movements.. reading the resolution from the Hui Amorangi, Anglican Church of the Diocese of Auckland “expresses it’s strongest opposition to the Homosexual Law Reform Bill, signed Paul Reeves..



Tirikatene Sullivan – you cannot compare the homosexual community with ethnic minorities.. higher education and salaries in the homosexual community.. travel agencies that cater for homosexual holidays.. 20,000 members who actively seek areas of the world for safe homosexual sex.. those who suffer most from proselytization and being enticed into promiscuity are the indigenous minorities



Chairman – we are here debating clauses



Philip Woollaston - the amendment proposes to establish a Royal Commission.. a Royal Commission should proceed legislation.. I suggest that a Royal Commission is not needed.. to have a referendum after that would make it even more complicated.. The amendment also requires the Governor General become involved in legislation by making a judgement on it..



Norm Jones – if anal intercourse is legalised.. at sixteen .. and four twelve year olds .. we’re going to find it in Invercargill.. I’m going to read out a letter from a specialist venereologist .. “I work at the coal face.. I’d like all Members to be able to look over my shoulder.. infections spread by sodomy.. AIDS.. casual partners.. comparing it with the pigs eating food amongst their own faeces.. mal-adjustment.. they withdraw from society..” ..that’s what anal intercourse is..



Chairman – emphasis should be given to the clauses of the Bill



Trevor Mallard – point of order..



Geoff Braybrooke – my amendment to the Bill .. the Bill should not be passed until a Royal Commission looks into all aspects of homosexuality.. Cardinal Thomas Williams – there is need for sustained, systematic research on homosexuality.. I believe this Royal Commission is a necessity.. public opinion decides the fate of every Member of this House.. the public has a right to be informed on all of the facts.. it is all to demanding – especially Part Two.. put forward an amendment to exclude Armed Forces.. the Police..



Peter Tapsell – I do not believe that the Bill can be amended



Norm Jones – indecency with boys clauses.. homosexuality between Masters and pupils .. pupils in the fifth and sixth form.. twelve-year-old having anal intercourse with a sixteen year old.. this is wrong.. try telling your twelve-year-old son that is abnormal.. and he says it’s normal dad..



Jones – the homosexuals say they are being victimized – that is not true.. there hasn’t been a prosecution in the last fourteen years.. there’s no harassment.. they’re being too greedy when they bring it down to sixteen years .. twelve year olds.. only thirteen people in prison at the moment for practising sodomy..



Jones – so where’s the sexual harassment against homosexuals.. young boys are more open to this sort of thing.. we are normalising it.. it’ll be commercialised.. homosexuals will come to New Zealand looking for sex with sixteen year olds.. if this Act is brought in the police will have to look out for boys.. the police don’t need it..



Jones – when it comes to the crunch.. we can’t have it..



Helen Clarke – we’ve been treated again to the bizarre fantasies of Norm Jones.. the argument of sex tourism is specious.. There are Members who are obsessed with sexual practises of the homosexual.. If the police have better things to do .. why keep this law on the books..



Clarke – it is highly undesirable that the Governor General be brought into this debate.. no matter how much evidence ..some Members would not be convinced..



Clarke – adults cannot change their sexual orientation.. [continues on 0232-AB]