Media ID   0237a-A    

Parliamentary Committee Stages (9 April 1986) of the Homosexual Law Reform Bill

Unique ID



Bill Sutton, Fran Wilde, Graeme Lee, John Banks, Merv Wellington, Roger Maxwell, Russell Marshall, Trevor Mallard, Winston Peters

Related media

0237-B, 0237a-B


Source tape





9 April 1986







Recorded by


Barry Neels

Deposited by


Barry Neels


Committee Stages span 0231 – 0238


This summary gives general themes as to the content of this recording. It is not a verbatim transcript. Always refer back to the original audio. This is a working document and any amendments/corrections are welcome.



Debate continues on Part Two (anti discrimination)



Bill Sutton



Merv Wellington – point of order..



Chairman – ruling



Merv Wellington – point of order.. who the Chair recognises



Trevor Mallard – speaking to point of order



Bill Sutton – all Members of the House are equal in this debate.. Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan is confusing behaviour with orientation.. this change in the legislation gives protection.. it isn’t valid to assume that every man is a rapist.. nor should we assume that every homosexual is a rapist.. it is wrong to make assumptions about Maori or any other race.. I have foreshadowed a number of proposed amendments..



Sutton – amendments 9a and 9b.. the intention of these changes will be to allow a few narrow forms of discrimination.. where it relates to domestic employment in a private household.. The Member of Whangarei – extreme



John Banks – They forced Bill Sutton to vote for the age of sixteen



Sutton – the Member is incorrectly representing an earlier ruling



Chairman – we don’t refer to earlier rulings..



Banks – Part Two is the worst part of this Bill.. for more reaching ramifications.. if half a dozen homosexuals turn up for a job they cannot be discriminated against because they are homosexual.. Once upon a time, if someone turned up, we could send them away.. the right of the employer to turn down someone has been taken away.. Now I’ve employed many homosexuals – most of them have been good workers.. That doesn’t mean I support sodomy at age sixteen.. Employers should be able to hire who they want when they want.. Employers are being squeezed..



Banks – we live in a democracy.. you can’t sack them once you get them in.. this is a thoroughly evil Bill.. 835,000 signed a petition..



Fran Wilde - Whetu Tirikatene Sullivan talked about the case of a mother who let a room to a boarder.. her son was brutally sodomized.. that woman is already protected under legislation.. The Member for Southern Maori gave us a very emotional speech.. it is no use frightening people into voting for an amendment.. This Bill is to do with discrimination..



Wilde – Boy Scout movement.. this Bill covers paid employment – not voluntary organisations.. this is not thought policing.. this Bill outlaws discriminatory actions.. not what people think or say



Graeme Lee – I believe Fran Wilde should realise that there is a lot of people listening that are angered by her responses.. Boy Scouts .. there are many paid Boy Scout officers in this country.. In America, the Homosexual Association is suing the Boy Scout’s.. We have said here tonight that the Boy Scouts is a body that needs support.. Salvation Army submission..



Lee – militant homosexual community .. predatory nature.. it’s a part of the homosexual lifestyle.. promiscuity.. accommodation.. where is the evidence of landlord’s discriminating against homosexuals..



Lee – why should we now make homosexuality a human right.. 830,000 people are saying that this part of the Bill is unacceptable



Russell Marshall – There’s a difference between orientation and practise.. teachers who are involved in homosexual practise can lose their jobs.. This Bill says we should not be able to discriminate.. the vast majority of teachers are heterosexual.. I have no doubt there are many lesbian teachers .. there is no evidence that homosexual teachers are more likely to abuse their positions.. no evidence of recruitment.. 90% of child abuse is done by heterosexual males..



Marshall – at present people can lose their jobs not for what they do, but for who they are.. it’s time we brought this fundamental human right to cover this group in our community.. deal with the matters in the Bill..



Winston Peters – recently I got a communication from a homosexual group telling me that I would be targeted .. They will live the rue the day..



Peters – promiscuity .. that’s why AIDS has spread at the speed it has..



Peters – Fran Wilde is so uncertain of herself.. she knows nothing of the law.. she should get up and apologise to the House.. Member of Hamilton West .. was a P.E.P worker.. Nazi Germany reference



Trevor Mallard



Winston Peters – point of order



Merv Wellington – point of order



Chairman – order..



Trevor Mallard – it was a bit hard to deal with the Select Committee considering the behaviour of the Member for Whangarei – who was ejected on at least one occasion..



Merv Wellington – point of order



Mallard – the Victoria University Law Faculty made a very good submission.. It showed that Part Two is so weak it is hardly worth supporting.. This Bill covers only homosexual orientation.. this means it would be legal to discriminate on the grounds that sexual activity per say was regarding as repugnant or morally reprehensible by a landlord.. comparison with New South Wales legislation



Roger Maxwell – I will vote against this part of the Bill.. sat on the Select Committee.. compassion for homosexuals.. Bill will serve no useful purpose.. The law will not change people’s attitudes..



Maxwell – discrimination happens elsewhere.. the question we should ask – should we deny rights of one group by replacing it with dubious benefits for another.. Scouting.. [continues on 0237a-B]